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tv   Quadriga - The International Talk Show  LINKTV  September 15, 2017 7:00am-7:31am PDT

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♪ melinda: hello and welcome to "quadriga." nazis in the bundestag for the first time since world war ii? that was the dark picture painted by germany's foreign minister this week as he referred to the prospect that the upcoming election could put the right wing afd bharti
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enterprises, and unlnless the latest surveys are badly mistaken, the afd will cross s e 5% thrhreshold needed for parliamentary representation and possibly even emerge as germany's third strongest party. at least one party leader is under investigation for alleged hate speech. are divisive -- so much so that the german justice ministster considers part of the election platform unconstitutional. just how dangerous is the party that calls itself alternative for germany? are they a real alternative or a threat? those are the questions we want to talk about on "quadriga," and here are my guests. it is a pleasure to welcome barbara junge, deputy editor-in-chief of german newspaper "the taz." time in for the first
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post-world war ii history, right-wing extremists will be elected to parliament, and this is a threat. and a pleasure to have margin -- the show again. he says 10% right wing prop you populists will not harm the country. and a pleasure to have job janssen with us. he says the exclusion of people by established parties is far more dangerous than inclusion by the afd. barbara, let me start by quoting your opening statement. you say you see this as a threat. far as theo as foreign minister, when he says the election could go as far as putting nazis and parliament? barbara: it was a drastic morning 10 days before the election, but still, you quoted me -- it is right-wing
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extremists for sure that will be in parliament, that will be sitting in the reichstag, and it is a threat for sure. melinda: your opening statement realthe right wing is no threat, but some of its leaders are under investigation for language that is possibly incitement to hatred and division under the german constitution. do you think that a parliamentary presence of this party would wind up giving a andform to such thoughts possibly lowering the threshold for hateful rhetoric? tin: i would be more than happy if they did not come up above the 5% threshold and not be represented in parliament. persons arer two to under investigation, does that mean they are convicted of
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violating certain things? adult think so. if they find something that is forbidden, they should punish them. that is how it goes, and that is what the future will be. melinda: we are hearing some very vocal bashing of the afd from germany's established party. would you say that helps or hurts their chances in the election? job: it helps because the established parties now actually so that the afd is a party standing outside of the establishment, and the motive for manyny voters is to vote foa party not within the inner circle of religion politics, so it does not damage the afd at all. melinda: let's look at the afd's chances. for a while this spring, it looked like they almost might self-destruct. now we are seeing a sudden upturn in poll numbers. what is behind that? of the publicnge
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discussion, i'm sure, but also, it's a question of how they campaign isause the now growing. they have quite a war's -- force behind them, and they are spreading out their position. that is what we have seen in the u.s. as well. that is what we have seen in france. at least that is part of it, i would say. melinda: afd poll numbers are all the more remarkable because the party has become increasingly extreme since it's founding. originally founded as the eu skeptic party, it has reinvented itself as the party of immigration anger. >> something of an odd couple, the 76-year-old head of the national conservative wing while the young businesswoman leads the moderate economic camp.
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their common goal is to take the afd intoto parliament. russia friends, we need as a christian bulwark against an islamic land grab. it is time that we took a defensive stand. >> since 2015, people from all over the world have been coming here w without identitity paper, without us knowing who they are. >> enough of what we have been calling climate protection. that means quittining all the national and international agreements related to it. >> the afd's many faces -- are they policy or blatant populism? l lehmingng, policy or populism?
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to what degree is this leadership duo one reason for the upturn of support? i don't think it is so much of a reason. i personally think they could have a dog people would elect and would still have 8% or 9%. it is kind of a movement, anti-climate change -- first of all, anti-refugee policy, anti-europe, anti-all these things. i think it is not so relevant who was at the top. anti-,: anti-, anti-, but in particular, is the overarching theme anti-globalization? malte: yes, anti-globalization, but many things that come with globalization are cultural liberalism and global point of view, not being so
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nationalistic. they want to go back to nationalistic policies, to bismarck kind of policies and so on. they think many developments that happened in the past are doubtful. barbara: i do not understand why you say it is not a threat because all humanity is going backwards beyond the policies of friendship, of consensus that .uilt the postwar era that is a threat to me. a threat to the transatlantic relations. a threat to the eu. malte: we talk about 10% or 15% that the afd might represent. 85% ofst means there are parties that have a consensus about europe, refugee policy, trying to change, but none of these parties will ever go into a coalition like they did with
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other european countries. i cannot see how this will change the best this will change the public discourse, but it will not change actual policy. melinda: your opening statement talked about the exclusion of many people from the political discourse. would you say these candidates are perhaps giving voice to a resentment against political correctness of the sort that we see from supporters of someone like donald trump? and i alsobsolutely, do not agree that it does not matter which leader is heading this party. we have seen the leaders being extremely amateur mystic. theirtiming is bad and party is extremely organized. when they enter the bundestag's term, that also means their body is going to learn, that their profile is going to be strengthened, that they will have a national platform.
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these parties change over the years. asas we have seen,n, there is as le pen. what these parties are learning their first few years in parliament is to attract multiple groups in society. it starts with more extreme who really do not want to be part of the establishment anymore, but all of a sudden, lineoters cross the moral and think that they have shown some competence in the bundestag, so they can support them next time, so the threshold is getting lower. melinda: let's come back to the applications of presence in parliament. you talk about giving them a platform. let me ask what kind of sentiments we might see a platform the given to. we heard this week about an email allegedly w written in whh
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the author voiced pretty rabid xenophobia. and as we mentioned, german arresting thee other leader for statements they say may violate germany's prohibition on violations of human dignity. those statements called for germany's integration minister turkey.isposed of" in would you say this is a level of hate speech that in fact violate the constitution -- violates the constitution? >> i don't think --barbara: i don't think it violates the constitution. perhaps it violates criminal law. our free speech is not as open as in the u.s., but still, it is not the constitution. for one, being elected to the bundestag means it is a door
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open for right-wing extremists to stream into the bundestag, and then you have the other that for me is the real bad thing. the oldest member of the afd be jewishlking about victims of the holocaust -- he was quoting an italian nazi, but still, that's the kind of language that could violate the constitution, yeaeah? say we areuld you seeing a kind of watershed in german history? the financial times said that until now, the germann experiene in the second world war has in oculi did it against the rise of a racist anti-semitic right-wing. has that somehow dissolved, that inoculation?
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would not call them nazis, as our foreign minister did. i am very careful about these descriptions. if you call afd politicians nazis, you say in a sense they are like hitler's. if they are like hitler's, hitler's was not so awful as we all think. it makes a relative's asian -- ion oftion -- relativat our own past. refugee policy was not represented in parliament. party skeptical of the policy. we did not have an open european policy. even discussion about the level
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that we have to talk about the of our past, i would like to have that discussion, but it is a legal discussion to go through. they are neo-nazis. it's not nazis in the parliament, but they are in the party, and we know it, so that's a threat. country you come from a that does also have a strong far right presence in politics. how do you see the afd and the situation in germany in comparison for example to that of the netherlands? i think germany is relatively late having a right-wing populist party interim parliament. that has to do with more than the refugee crisis, more than dissatisfaction with europe. this is a problem that all of western europe party systems have.
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established parties have forgotten a large part of the german voters -- the disenchanted voters, as i call them, on a few main topics on the negative side of the multicultural society and the discourse about these topics was not possible. every party, especially on the right, who wanted to start this discourse was directly being framed as extreme right or nazist party, and thatat includs aa big danger because these people feel neglected by politics for 10, 20 years already, and this is their anger having now, and the refugee policy of the refugee crisis was the symbolic moment for the afd, that people got over this moral threshold. but the difference is that within the afd, there are definitely extremist groups, and afd is being infiltrated by extremist g groups with ideologs
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that you will not see with francis gabriel, who is physically a liberal who does not want islamization in the netherlands. freedom.alks about they are incapable of including other minorities in the party. it's very nativist it. they are stronger anti-islam and stronger islamic phobic than the afd is. melinda: i want to delve into for the ante, but since you dealt into the established parties, let me take a look at thehe chancellor herself. >> the chancellor campaigns in her home region but gets whistles and booze -- boos. >> building germrmany's future n
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whistles will lelead nowhere. >> the campaign is different. surveys are giving the alternative for germanany 20% ad more. >> the eururo crisis, energy reform, and the immigration crisis after she opened the borders on her own, and we say we want to send ms. merkel back home. >> merkel has won every direct mandate here. more and more voters feel alienated, most of all by a anga merkel's refugee crisis. >> merkel opens her arms wide and says come in, everyone. >> as i see it, letting all these asylum-seekers in just was not well thought out. it went all wrong. >> did merkel disregard a widespread fear of foreigners and give the afd a boost? melinda: an area that has been
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through profound structuraral change over the past 25 years, basically since the fall of the wall -- in many respects, it almost visible's a state like iowa in the united states, which, of course, gave strong, strong support to donald trump. is this really only about that fateful decision in 2015 to take in refugees, or is it about deep-seated structural change and its effect? barbara: it is absolutely about the changes that took place. we learned really from the people democracy is not served for free. .ou have to discuss with them not only merkel, i think most of the established parties did not look into it. show thatolls seem to many afd supporters are by no means at the bottom of the economic pyramid. what is driving the frustration and anger?
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be superblye try to fair toward the afd. a lot ofed about development that took place. they warned about rising criminality. they warned about immigration problems. they warned about homophobia. they warned about everything that comes with refugees, which is a real problem, and it was admitted by the old parties after months. i do not share these concerns. i think we can integrate them, and i am optimistic about it, but if you have to be fair to them, their feeling is we were first, we warned you, and now you are proving what your policy is. merkel has changed tremendously in her policy with the and soranean and so on on. she switched her own policy
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under everything the afd want her of. melinda: from outside, germany looks too many people in the world like europe's common part prosperous island in the middle of a turbulent sea. think the judge also think this. my job as a journalist here is to show that a lot of things happen under the surface, and a lot of things that you do not see. when germana time media was largely ignoring .roblems with migrants i think many dutch people think a copy, butike people do not realize there is -- there is also
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this extremist wing in the party, and it is also my job to explain this to the dutch public. comeda: let us briefly back to our title and talk about the degree to which this could be a threat. afd will be represented in parliament. there's no question about that. tina possible alternatives -- the finishe that wears off once they are in the limelight. the other being that they get the platform we talked about and it has an enormous impact. the platform will make them rise even, i think. they willon't think rise above, let's say, 15%. there was always a certain amount of people in germany who had right wing or extremist views who were not represented in the party. now they are represented in the
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but we have two deterrence -- the brexit and the trump election in the usa. that works as a deterrent because it shows where right-wing populism leads us to. this is not where if you see it on tv that many people admire. i think right-wing populism is not on the rise. we thought election results in holland. i think 15% is european normality. but it is still rising in europe compared to 10 years ago. it is not that the movement has been stopped. you have to be careful about this. but also in the afd enters the before,g, as you said many copy their policy points and also their rhetoric. the only thing the afd can do then is further radicalized in tone and position.
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we have seen that also in other countries. that is definitely a big threat, so we need a a political bundestag from other parties, especially from the left. , it neverountries really succeeded. germany can show that they can do it this time. that essentially poses the question -- can the smaller parties rise to the threat and essentially helped the voters and citizens to see the afd for what it is? sure.a: yeah, i said democracy is not served for free, but you can work for it. melinda: parliamentary democracy means coalitions. what would you think might be the best coalition to lead germany in a parliament that will include the far right? i don't know what the
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outcome will be, so for me, it is always a left coalition, but that is not realistic. that's the point. i would say if there is a strong left, it would help, but it's not strong enough at the moment. the jamaicank coalition would be cdu -- melinda: we have to explain this, the jamaican flag, black, yellow, and green. it would put the spd in the opposition. it would be the strongest opposition party. i am a little bit afraid about the afd being the strongest opposition party because then they have some parliamentary rights. for example, to be the first speaker, if the government announces something, to answer them and so on. there are a number of rights that come with being the strongest opposition party.
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i'm not so sure. coalition isamaica actually a replacement of the grand coalition in a certain way. only in thenot netherlands but in other european countries as well are the right-wing parties. not talking about afd here, but ftp and cdu -- they are actually populistsuccessful parties because these are the right parties who better understand that this is not about social economic topics but about social cultural topics, about security issues, integration issues, and righght-wing parties understand better. if you want to keep the afd a small party, a right-wing coalition would be better. much to thank you very all of you for being with us today and thanks to all of you for tuning in. hope to see you soon.
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♪ >> this week in global 3000 we head to the united states where we meet the ever-prepared preppers. in the guatemalan rainforest we learn what food and woodland conservation have in common but first we go to china, where divorce rates are rising and paving the way for new business ideas. the big day! around the world, weddings are pretty much always an excuse to celebrate in style. in 2015, more than 400,000

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